Monday, October 03, 2005

Reforming October 31st

Every month Michelle and I get a e-newsletter from Veritas Press, the company we order our kid's home schooling stuff from. This month's edition included a pretty interesting article concerning Halloween. Now, I don't think that it's a secret to anyone that knows us Graves boys (can I still use that term? It keeps me from feeling too old!) that we love Halloween. The final weeks of October in the Graves house were marked by sleepless nights, spray paint fumes, cardboard scraps, and shavings of foam rubber strewn about the house (my poor mother). The smell of a hot-melt glue gun still brings a sigh of reminiscence. Heck, we used to try to turn every youth group event event into some excuse to make costumes and dress up. Hey, we've got creativity flowing out of everywhere, what can I say? But it wasn't just the costumes, oh no. The whole atmosphere, the feel of the thing. October on Chester St. was better than Disney World. Oh, and you can't forget the candy. Love me some Reese's PB cups (another Graves weakness!) But our fondness of All Hallows' Eve isn't shared by all. So, in an attempt to maybe persuade folks, or at least spread around some learning, I offer the following article which originally appeared in the August 1996 edition of Open Book Newsletter. The article, matter-of-factly entitled "Concerning Halloween" (written by James B. Jordan, whom I admittedly don't know much about) reflects an opinion of the holiday that I have held for some time now, however when I read it the other day, it really jived in a refreshing way with a lot of my current thinking about the passivity of the church, the lost efforts and accomplishments of our church fathers, and the progressive redemption of culture and the world, all of which just happen to be mentioned in the article. So, give it look-see, and let me know what you think.


Oh, yah.......BOO!


Concerning Halloween
It has become routine in October for some Christian schools to send out letters warning parents about the evils of Halloween, and it has become equally routine for me to be asked questions about this matter.
"Halloween" is simply a contraction for All Hallows' Eve. The word "hallow" means "saint," in that "hallow" is just an alternative form of the word "holy" ("hallowed be Thy name"). All Saints' Day is November 1. It is the celebration of the victory of the saints in union with Christ. The observance of various celebrations of All Saints arose in the late 300s,and these were united and fixed on November 1 in the late 700s. The origin of All Saints Day and of All Saints Eve in Mediterranean Christianity had nothing to do with Celtic Druidism or the Church's fight against Druidism (assuming there ever even was any such thing as Druidism, which is actually a myth concocted in the 19th century by neo-pagans.)
In the First Covenant, the war between God's people and God's enemies was fought on the human level against Egyptians, Assyrians, etc. With the coming of the New Covenant, however, we are told that our primary battle is against principalities and powers, against fallen angels who bind the hearts and minds of men in ignorance and fear. We are assured that through faith, prayer, and obedience, the saints will be victorious in our battle against these demonic forces. The Spirit assures us: "The God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly" ( Romans 16:20).
The Festival of All Saints reminds us that though Jesus has finished His work, we have not finished ours. He has struck the decisive blow, but we have the privilege of working in the mopping up operation. Thus, century by century the Christian faith has rolled back the demonic realm of ignorance, fear, and superstition. Though things look bad in the Western world today, this work continues to make progress in Asia and Africa and Latin America.
The Biblical day begins in the preceding evening, and thus in the Church calendar, the eve of a day is the actual beginning of the festive day. Christmas Eve is most familiar to us, but there is also the Vigil of Holy Saturday that precedes Easter Morn. Similarly, All Saints' Eve precedes All Saints' Day.
The concept, as dramatized in Christian custom, is quite simple: On October 31, the demonic realm tries one last time to achieve victory, but is banished by the joy of the Kingdom.
What is the means by which the demonic realm is vanquished? In a word: mockery. Satan's great sin (and our great sin) is pride. Thus, to drive Satan from us we ridicule him. This is why the custom arose of portraying Satan in a ridiculous red suit with horns and a tail. Nobody thinks the devil really looks like this; the Bible teaches that he is the fallen Arch-Cherub. Rather, the idea is to ridicule him because he has lost the battle with Jesus and he no longer has power over us. (The tradition of mocking Satan and defeating him through joy and laughter plays a large role in Ray Bradbury's classic novel, Something Wicked This Way Comes, which is a Halloween novel.)
The gargoyles that were placed on the churches of old had the same meaning. They symbolized the Church ridiculing the enemy. They stick out their tongues and make faces at those who would assault the Church. Gargoyles are not demonic; they are believers ridiculing the defeated demonic army.
Thus, the defeat of evil and of demonic powers is associated with Halloween. For this reason, Martin Luther posted his 95 challenges to the wicked practices of the Church to the bulletin board on the door of the Wittenberg chapel on Halloween. He picked his day with care, and ever since Halloween has also been Reformation Day. Similarly, on All Hallows' Eve(Hallow-Even – Hallow-E'en – Halloween), the custom arose of mocking the demonic realm by dressing children in costumes. Because the power of Satan has been broken once and for all, our children can mock him by dressing up like ghosts, goblins, and witches. The fact that we can dress our children this way shows our supreme confidence in the utter defeat of Satan by Jesus Christ—we have NO FEAR!
I don't have the resources to check the historical origins of all Halloween customs, and doubtless they have varied from time to time and from Christian land to Christian land. "Trick or treat" doubtless originated simply enough: something fun for kids to do. Like anything else, this custom can be perverted, and there have been times when "tricking" involved really mean actions by teenagers and was banned from some localities.
We can hardly object, however, to children collecting candy from friends and neighbors. This might not mean much to us today, because we are so prosperous that we have candy whenever we want, but in earlier generations people were not so well off, and obtaining some candy or other treats was something special. There is no reason to pour cold water on an innocent custom like this.
Similarly, the jack-o'-lantern's origins are unknown. Hollowing out a gourd or some other vegetable, carving a face, and putting a lamp inside of it is something that no doubt has occurred quite independently to tens of thousands of ordinary people in hundreds of cultures worldwide over the centuries. Since people lit their homes with candles, decorating the candles and the candle-holders was a routine part of life designed to make the home pretty or interesting. Potatoes, turnips, beets, and any number of other items were used.
Wynn Parks writes of an incident he observed: "An English friend had managed to remove the skin of a tangerine in two intact halves. After carving eyes and nose in one hemisphere and a mouth in the other, he poured cooking oil over the pith sticking up in the lower half and lit the readymade wick. With its upper half on, the tangerine skin formed a miniature jack-o'-lantern. But my friend seemed puzzled that I should call it by that name. `What would I call it? Why a "tangerine head," I suppose.'" (Parks, "The Head of the Dead", The World & I, November 1994, p. 270.) In the New World, people soon learned that pumpkins were admirably suited for this purpose. The jack-o'-lantern is nothing but a decoration; and the leftover pumpkin can be scraped again, roasted, and turned into pies and muffins.
In some cultures, what we call a jack-o'-lantern represented the face of a dead person, whose soul continued to have a presence in the fruit or vegetable used. But this has no particular relevance to Halloween customs. Did your mother tell you, while she carved the pumpkin, that this represented the head of a dead person and with his soul trapped inside? Of course not. Symbols and decorations, like words, mean different things in different cultures, in different languages, and in different periods of history. The only relevant question is what does it mean now, and nowadays it is only a decoration.
And even if some earlier generations did associate the jack-o'-lantern with a soul in a head, so what? They did not take it seriously. It was just part of the joking mockery of heathendom by Christian people.
This is a good place to note that many articles in books, magazines, and encyclopedias are written by secular humanists or even the pop-pagans of the so called "New Age" movement. (An example is the article by Wynn Parks cited above.) These people actively suppress the Christian associations of historic customs, and try to magnify the pagan associations. They do this to try and make paganism acceptable and to downplay Christianity. Thus, Halloween, Christmas, Easter, etc., are said to have pagan origins. Not true.
Oddly, some fundamentalists have been influenced by these slanted views of history. These fundamentalists do not accept the humanist and pagan rewriting of Western history, American history, and science, but sometimes they do accept the humanist and pagan rewriting of the origins of Halloween and Christmas, the Christmas tree, etc. We can hope that in time these brethren will reexamine these matters as well. We ought not to let the pagans do our thinking for us.
Nowadays, children often dress up as superheroes, and the original Christian meaning of Halloween has been absorbed into popular culture. Also, with the present fad of "designer paganism" in the so-called New Age movement, some Christians are uneasy with dressing their children as spooks. So be it. But we should not forget that originally Halloween was a Christian custom, and there is no solid reason why Christians cannot enjoy it as such even today.
"He who sits in the heavens laughs; Yahweh ridicules them" says Psalm 2. Let us join in His holy laughter, and mock the enemies of Christ on October 31.
James B. Jordan

78 Comments:

At 03 October, 2005 20:53, Blogger Ian said...

Now, I always delete the random spam that gets deposited on here, but that one above is just too precious for words. From vampires to "nursing bra related stuff"!(My stars!....the "stuff" there is to know about nursing bras!)

Is it just me? Am I missing the connection....?

Ian

 
At 03 October, 2005 22:18, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What he said!

Great article- it articulates what I've "felt" for years: Halloween is a celebration of victory, a mockery of our fallen enemies.

The Church needs to wake up to the fact that we fight a "winning" battle, not a
losing one.

Praise the Lord and pass the candy corn!

Matt- who will NOT be dressing up as a nursing (or any other) bra wearing transvestite vampire this year

 
At 05 October, 2005 15:10, Blogger BethsMomToo said...

I don't think Robb has gone out on Halloween since he saw Randy in that rubber vampire mask!

Here I always get a kick out of the "secret" 8th grade project - placement of the pumpkin on top of the civil war monument. The kids think they're being so "naughty", while the police watch from their hiding place to make sure nobody gets hurt getting the pumpkin up there. It's a local tradition!

The BEST "dress up" were the years we had the Youth Group fright night out behind Daley's house - until it became TOO popular. I'll never forget Scottie B. as "the creature from the black lagoon". Do we have any pictures of that?

 
At 06 October, 2005 19:25, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ian-
It was good to see you guys this summer at Kathi's. We hope to see you again soon.

I had never heard such things about Halloween! I found this to be extremely informative. When I mentioned it to a few people, they had a very different understanding of the origins of Halloween. So my question is, Is this the only writer who writes these things? Is there anybody that you know of that predates this guy that wrote about the origins? I want to know before I pass this information on to anybody else.

Love your blog!

 
At 06 October, 2005 20:48, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 06 October, 2005 21:18, Blogger Ian said...

I don't mind anonymous comments, but, please, stick to the topic at hand, and keep personal anymosities out of public discussions.

Thanks

 
At 08 October, 2005 18:43, Blogger Tim Costine said...

i loved things like the medieval festival and stuff that we did. always great excuses for making costumes and jousting.

 
At 09 October, 2005 14:35, Blogger BethsMomToo said...

This weekend I missed the combined home-schooler's Colonial Fair. I bet it was great! I had even thought about making myself a costume for it. I really enjoyed the kids' costumes at the Medieval Fair at Randy & Misty's last year. Matt, your kids looked GREAT! (What a surprise! ;) Do they ever get to wear them anywhere else? Have you guys been to the commercial Medieval Fairs? Beth took me to one in WV, but it appeared the place was overrun with "Goths" who hadn't the slightest idea about the authenticity of their costumes. When I asked if they were early or late Medieval they hadn't the slightest clue. ;) The guys who jousted on horseback were particularly good, though. I bet they were from one of those Medieval Feast restaurants. (Colin & I went to one in Florida and had a great time. It takes some talent to do that stuff on horseback. I have a tape of a BBC program about training men who were already good horsemen to learn to joust with armor on. It's really interesting if anyone wants to borrow it for homeschooling. Misty found it useful last year. There's more to it than we realize!)

 
At 09 October, 2005 18:21, Blogger Ian said...

Wendy,
The origin of All Hallows' Eve is uncontested, as far as I know. The church's celebration and memorial of saints and martyrs that have gone before us in the Christian faith is well documented as far back as the 4th century BC. I don't think that the writer is trying to say that the customs carried out today were part of the original celebration. What I do see him saying, and what I agree with, is that whatever origins dressing up and trick-or-treating may or may not have are so long removed and forgotten that they are no more pagan than little girls dressing up and having a tea party. How many families do we know send their 8 year old out dressed up like a vampire and say, "Remember, Lucifer likes candy corns!"?
I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians and the issue of eating meat sacrificed to idols. The thing with meat in Corinth was that the butcher shops were a back-door operation of the pagan temple. Litteraly. The meat markets were located on the back porches of the pagan temples. The selling of meat was an operation of the pagan place of worship. Any and all meat that was sold in Corinth was sacrificed to the heathen god. It was impossible for any Corinthian, Christian or otherwise, to eat meat that was not sacrificed to an idol. However, Pauls' instruction to the church was not militant vegetariansim, no; It was to eat freely with a clear conscience. And that was a clear conscience with full knowledge of the meat having been sacrificed to an idol. We have no such knowledge of the origins of dressing up in costume and going door-to-door begging for candy.
Even if we did, what difference would it make? Its like James Jordan said in the article,
"Did your mother tell you, while she carved the pumpkin, that this represented the head of a dead person and with his soul trapped inside? Of course not. .... The only relevant question is what does it mean now, and nowadays it is only a decoration.
And even if some earlier generations did associate the jack-o'-lantern with a soul in a head, so what?"
Do we not have the assurance and benefit of Christ's victory over death in all areas of our lives? Death is dead; it has been killed by Christ. The origins of Halloween, really, have no bearing on us. It is the present and future of the day that needs to be our concern. I, for one, will use it as a day to strike the enemy down while he is delusional from his pride. I will, because I have been given the ability and the right as a joint heir with Christ, mock death, its proponents, and its master.
You know, we Christians are a fickle bunch. October customs cause us great lament, but few of us think twice about the origins of trees in our houses and gift giving during the winter solstice, heart shaped cards in February, or choclate bunnies and colored eggs in the Spring's vernal equinox. And, in my humble opinion, not nearly enough of us consider very deeply at all the harmony with Scripture and biblical basis of a day dedicated specifically to the giving of thanks that happens to fall in November. We are very inconsistent in how and when we choose to apply matters of tradition and origin.

-Sorry, I kind of went off on a rant there at the end =) Please, don't anyone take it personally!

 
At 10 October, 2005 09:58, Blogger Ian said...

Keith,
Listen, this blog is not your place to air your personal problems, it's mine. So far I think I've been nice in how I've dealt with you and asking you not to comment on your personal differences with people. You have not honored my request. Now I have to insist that you no longer post here. Please, don't make me take any further action than that. Save us all some trouble, and stop.

 
At 10 October, 2005 14:03, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ian-
I really have felt the same way as you do (as far as your "rant" goes :)). You have articulated it well. My question was not about the origins of All Saints Day being refuted, but more about the reasons you gave concerning the costumes and the gargoyles mocking Satan for the fact that he eventually loses. That was a new concept to the people I mentioned it to and they had different understandings of the origin of gargoyles and dressing up like demons. That was more what I was asking for more sources on.

I completely agree with your opinions about our customs and why some people think it is OK to celebrate certain ones and not others. It doesn't make sense. The only thing I would add though is that the American customs that we have come to celebrate, not crowd out what we are really supposed to be celebrating. I don't think Easter bunnies are evil (and who knows, those too probably came from evil origins) but if you don't tell your children about Christ's death and resurrection but have plenty of time for an Easter egg hunt and candy, then there is a problem. Sarah told me about a nice tradition Cindy Morby had with doing fun Eastery stuff on the first day of Spring and leaving Easter alone so the children could focus on Christ that day. So I agree, unless you put a bad connotation on our funny traditions we do (tree etc.) and you celebrate them according to their origins (worshipping the tree) then what harm is there? I guess the only harm would be if you cause a weaker brother to stumble, and I have found that that is rarely the case concerning disagreements among Christians. It is usually more like Christians having disagreements between each other, and accusing the other of possibly causing a weaker brother to stumble, when it is really just for their own selfish gain. It is kind of a cop out argument if you're losing the argument..... If I truly thought having a tree was causing a weaker brother to stumble in his faith, out the slider it would go. Otherwise, it's just plain pretty.

 
At 10 October, 2005 14:30, Blogger Ian said...

Wendy,

Sorry if I misunderstood your question. Not sure about the costumes, but I can say a few things about the gargoyles. Gargoyles started being used on cathedral during the medieval period, specifically in the Gothic periods of architecture. The medieval, or middle ages, bear that name as they were the years between the dark ages and the renesaince (I think I spelled that wrong, but oh well). The dark ages were characterized by an absence of, or at least a very weak presence, of the church, and therefore an awareness about God. much of this was due to the socio-economics of the time. Poverty, illiteracy, and, therefore, ignorance abounded among common folk. As the dark ages gave way to the medieval period the church began to see the need of the laity and became more forceful in their duties and tactics. Different aspects of architecture and sculpture were used to educate the illiterate through use of pictures and the like. The sermons were still delivered in Latin, but the gospel and the clear message that Heaven and Hell were your only choices were made known to the general populace. As the truth spread, Europe was converted and the emergence from the dark ages, the victory over death, began to be celebrated. This victory was reflected in the architecture, among other places. Gothic was a later style of the period and was characterized by verticality; everything pointed up. The towers got taller, the windows became taller (letting more light into the cathedral), all symbolizng the victory of the church, through Christ, over death. Gargoyles were part of this architecture. Some will say that the gargoyles were meant to scare away evil forces from the cathedral, but that doesn't seem to fit with the theme and message of every other characteristic of the architecture. Everything, as I said before, was symbolic of Christ's victory passed onto His people. The church, along with all of Europe, had overcome an age of spiritual darkness, and now it was grabbing hold of its victory and celebrating it, and leading the world into an age of excellence in the name of God, ie. the renessaince. The explanation of gargoyles mocking Satan is far more consistant and logical when these things are taken into consideration.

Sorry for being long-winded, but I hope that helps.

Ian

 
At 10 October, 2005 16:31, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ian,

Fascinating topic! I'm a friend o your brother, Matt's (perhaps until he reads this post, then maybe we won't be friends!) :(

Anyhow, I'd love to agree with you! I'm disheartened to tell my 6 and 4-year-olds that they can't participate in Halloween. It breaks my heart to keep anything fun from them. So if your article were right - that would be SUPER!

Unfortunately, I don't think I can agree.

Your argument would work if All Saint's Day came before the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain (pronounced sow-in).

But Samhain dates back to the time of Christ, (http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/halloween/?page=origins), and All Saint's Day wasn't in existence until Pope Boniface IV designated November 1 All Saints' Day in the seventh century AD!

The interpretation put forward on your website is fun to consider, and I wish it were true, but I'm afraid the Pagan holiday came first, and it appears that the "Christian" interpretation came afterwards to try to wash it away.

And then there's the issue of following a decree from a "pope."

True, Halloween may not be about worshipping the dead or evil spirits or (insert abomination here) to you and your kids, but it seems though that Haloween is indeed about those things in origin.

You could say, "But my kids aren't taught about that!"

But what if I sent my kids to Mormon Church every week and said, "Well, I just tell them to ignore the polygamy and polytheism and eternal progression stuff." "I have them focus on Christ and His redemption."

No, we'd never fall for that! The service is evil - period.

In the same way, we'd be naive to play with a ouija board and say, "Oh, I don't believe in the occult part of it."

In the same way, we can say that Halloween is all about Christ's victory over evil, but the reality is that despite our proclamation, it is still in fact a holiday designed by evil people for evil purposes.

I know that 99.999% of people who celebrate it in the US have no idea about the occult roots of it, but that does not diminish those occultic roots.

Today Halloween is celebrated by people who likely don't even believe in evil spirits anyway. But their ignorance of what they're really doing is a lot like someone who ignorantly plays with a ouija board he finds at Toys R Us.

I'm afraid for me to be convinced and allow my children to participate, I'd have to see evidence that All Hallow's Eve predates the Celtic festival of Samhain.

It seems more likely, that the Catholic Church incorporated Paganism into its practices to win people. I do not believe God is honored with those evangelistic tactics.

 
At 10 October, 2005 16:54, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Matt who? Sounds like my husband.

 
At 10 October, 2005 17:06, Anonymous Anonymous said...

My friend Caryn said this, so I'm quoting her (I can't take credit for it.)

"The interesting thing about Christmas is that the birth of Christ has been celebrated since.... well..... the birth of Christ :-)"

I'm afraid that Halloween is a washing of a Pagan holiday with Christian paint.

I'd like to think otherwise, but I can't.

 
At 10 October, 2005 19:11, Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 10 October, 2005 20:12, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cool, free eggs!

 
At 10 October, 2005 20:49, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I responded to Mark's email with this really long email, but I think I clicked on the wrong thing when I finished because it never showed up. It's not the one Ian deleted because I saw that one and now it's gone. But now I don't know how to get it back. Mark is it lost and gone forever? It was a good one refuting everything you said :) Computers and I do not get along. If I feel like typing again later then I will Mark. I think I said something about eggshells....

 
At 10 October, 2005 21:01, Blogger Ian said...

Mark,

Thanks for dropping in! It's always encouraging to see someone new pop in for a visit. Hope you can stay awhile.

Thank you, also, for your comments and input; you raise some good things to think about.

In response, I offer the following (my, I'm sounding rather formal....)

If your concern is about a celebration of God's victory over death not preceding Samhain, then I would remind you that God Himself instituted just such a celebration when He commanded Moses and the Israelites to observe the Passover. Deliverance from oppression, death and destruction under the Egyptians by a mighty and all powerful God. Christ observed this feast and Himself became the Paschal Lamb, revealing that the Mosaic Passover was truly the celebration of God's victory over the enemies of His people. And, in the ultimate mockery of Satan and the powers of death, Christ was buried and rose on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. The celebration of the defeat of death is shouted loudly in the Psalms; David pleas with God to mock his enemies and bring them to shame. God proclaims His ultimate power and victory through His prophets. God personally mocks Satan in the testing of His servant Job. We, God's chosen people, have been celebrating the power of life over death since the days of Joseph when he proclaimed that, "What man meant for evil, God intended for good." The Church's celebration of their Savior's triumph over death far outdates any "modern" Druid custom (which, according to the author of the article, may or may not have even existed. I'm still looking into that one.)

You also mentioned in your later post that Halloween is a washing of a pagan custom with Christian paint. While that may bear weight, I would point out that all of our "Christian" holidays are such. Do you celebrate Christmas? Why? And why in Dec?Surely you don't really believe that Christ was born on Dec 25th. The fact is that the celebration of Christ's birth has no Scriptural mandate. We are not commanded by God's word to recognize in any formal or official way the birth of the Messiah. It was not celebrated in the early Apostolic church, at least we have no reason to believe so from the Scriptures (sorry Caryn!). The only reason the tradition is around today is because the church instituted it to combat the pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice. That is why the date falls in late December (solstice falls on or around the 21st). Also, the custom of Christmas trees has been said to be traced back to ancient Druid tree worship, so what's the difference between the Ol' Scotch Pine in the parlor and dressing up on Halloween? Then there's Easter. The very name comes from the pagan Spring goddess Eoster (may have spelled that wrong). Again, no Scriptural mandate for a specific day of celebrating the ressurection. It, like Christmas, was instituted and placed on the calendar where it was by the Church to combat pagan Vernal Equinox celebrations and homages to their goddess of Spring. All your objections to Halloween can be applied to these holidays as well.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that we shouldn't celebrate the birth and ressurection of our Lord, they are glorious and joyous things. But so is Christ's triumph over death! Our hope is in the ressurected Christ, who defeated death!

"Oh, death, where is your victory? Oh, grave, where is your sting?" This is what I proclaim daily, but maybe just a little more loudly on Oct 31st.

Ian

 
At 10 October, 2005 21:10, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think the origin of Halloween is not the point of the article, and Ian's mantion of the meat sacrificed to idols is psot on. Rather than supporting an idolotrous and demonic temple system, the Christian that ate the meat in thanksgiving gave honor and glory to God.

In the same way, Satan is not honored nor is God dishonered in my family's celebration of Halloween, because we celebrate it in the spirit of Christ's victory, part of which is the redemption of the world and it's cultures. What pagans made in ignorance under the influence of satanic muses have been taken as plunder and trophies by a victorious army.

- Heather's Matt, who will bring the bungee cord slingshot if Wendy's Matt brings the eggs;)

 
At 10 October, 2005 21:16, Anonymous Anonymous said...

That Jekyll guy is a jerk- don't listen to him.



Matt- who thinks multiple personalities are so much more fun than one.

 
At 10 October, 2005 21:18, Blogger Ian said...

"What pagans made in ignorance under the influence of satanic muses have been taken as plunder and trophies by a victorious army."

What men meant for evil, God intended for good.

Amen.

Ian

 
At 11 October, 2005 10:24, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So, let me see if I understand this correctly:

Matt #1 will bring the eggs to deface my home.
Matt #2 will bring a slingshot to help deface my home.

Which part of the "Christ honoring" "Satan mocking" "Church triumphant" aspects of the blessed Halloween does this fall under?

Or is this the other part? ;P

BTW, I give credit to my lovely wife Shelby for picking up on this irony.

 
At 11 October, 2005 13:25, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mark,

Please please please... if you have been offended in any way, I just want to say...

... it was all Matt C's idea ;)

-Matt G, who knows Mark can take a joke.

 
At 11 October, 2005 14:22, Blogger Ian said...

Matt,

You're lucky that I get your obscure referances, otherwise everyone would think you're a total whack.

Keep your cane close, Mr. Talbot, there's a full moon on the rise....

 
At 11 October, 2005 14:58, Blogger BethsMomToo said...

As I was reading down through the comments I was thinking of all those things I could bring up concerning their original meanings, but then thought it was probably better not to sensitize anyone's conscience! "...but to him who considers anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." Rom.14:14. Though nobody in this conversation qualifies as a "weak brother", I know we'd all agree that it's a personal, family decision. That's what I always taught my kids, anyway.

OK, maybe just ONE interesting origin that doesn't mean the same thing today (this was one of Loren's favorites)-"bloomers" were once considered a sign of feminine protest, though today no female wearing slacks would consider herself to be protesting. (I know, I know...there are those who do think it's biblically incorrect. Personally, I don't agree, but if for some reason I visited their church or home, I would follow their rules, as I know all of you would....except the Matts, Ian and Mark, of course...unless Matt & Ian were wearing their kilts...)

Btw, Ian, wonderful explanation concerning gothic architecture! (one of my interests!) There are still Orthodox churches in Russia that have paintings of Bible stories on the outer walls for the illiterate. And the facade of Notre Dame in Paris is a trip through the OT, if you ever take the time to check it out. [Bring binoculars!]

 
At 11 October, 2005 16:39, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think Halloween is GREAT! What's the fuss?

 
At 11 October, 2005 17:03, Blogger Ian said...

Talk about playing the Devil's advocate....


GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN!

 
At 12 October, 2005 08:54, Anonymous Anonymous said...

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http://blog.wilcoxusa.net/?p=349

 
At 14 October, 2005 11:46, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mark-

You know, I've been really thinking about what you've said, and you're right: You can take something evil and put it in a Christian context, maybe even with the best of intentions- God's glory evangelism, etc-, and the bottom line is it's still not right.

That's why I just have to say, even though the intentions are good, and in and of itself its it's not a bad thing-

your last post is still spam ;)

-Matt

 
At 14 October, 2005 12:10, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I still go back to the question: would you allow your children to play with a ouija board and say, "Oh, I don't believe in the occult part of it?"

Also, I've been doing thinking about this. A quoation from the original post says: "Because the power of Satan has been broken once and for all, our children can mock him by dressing up like ghosts, goblins, and witches. The fact that we can dress our children this way shows our supreme confidence in the utter defeat of Satan by Jesus Christ—we have NO FEAR!"

I think this is dangerous. We do not know that our children are saved (at least our young ones.) As such, we should have no such confidence in their safety when it comes to things of a spiritual nature. The power of Satan may not have been broken for them, and they should not be so foolishly engaged in a battle in which they do not belong.

It reminds me of Acts 19:13-16:

"Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded."

It is prudent of us not to put our potentially unsaved children in the same position of these vagabond Jewish exorcists.

Christmas and Easter may have taken lots of Pagan customs, but you won't find bunnies and santa around my home.

 
At 14 October, 2005 13:05, Blogger Ian said...

Hey!

Is this turning into a conversation about covenants and their blessings? I'm game ;)
(Not that I would ever let my kids play with a Ouija board. Also, I think that analogy, along with the Mormon one is a little flawed, but I won't get into that.)

Mark,
Concerning the passage from Acts: The exorcists were practicing more in the name of Paul than of Christ. Noticed they identified Jesus as, "whom Paul preacheth," and not ,"Son of God," or "Christ crucifed," or the like. They didn't know Christ; they had no business doing exorcisms. You're right, we Christians, those of us who do know Christ, it is dangerous to let these pagans try to do things that are reserved for the people of God. Including celebration. They have nothing to celebrate, so we must be all the more diligent to do it and proclaim to them the proper object of, and reason for celebration.

I think the main point of this topic is being missed. We've been so caught up in the history of Halloween and what it meant, that we're missing what we're supposed to do with it, and what we need to make it mean. Maybe Boniface had it right. Maybe he saw a pagan custom and said, "No! The powers of evil have been destroyed by Christ the King. He has won the victory over Satan and passes it on to His people, His creation and culture. I will not allow the pagans to enjoy even a moment of glory, not even one thought of victory of the powers of darkness, and I will not allow them to dictate our culture." So, he rightly takes measures to turn their pagan rituals into something to be enjoyed by even Christians, who celebrate with the proper perspective, and show the pagans their foolish hopelessness. So, considering this for a moment, can we say that by not doing anything on Halloween, by letting the pagans have just one night, that we are allowing death to feel victory, even if only for a few hours? Is that responsible of us as Christians who are benefactors of the total victory of Christ and are commanded to live as such, preaching the gospel to all?
So, you may agree and say, "well then, let's get rid of Halloween all together." Fine. Let's do that and deny ourselves the blessing of gathering with our friends, the fun of dressing up, the pleasure of eating yummy candy, and just plain ol' having a good time. These are things that are given to us through the redemption of culture by the victory of Christ. Culture is redeemed by Him for us! Either way, by not partaking in or abolishing the holiday, we are denying the totality and the benefits of the victory of our Savior.
One of the main points of the article was to not allow pagans to dictate or control our culture. It is not theirs; It has been purchased by the blood of Christ and they have no claim to it. Yawheh's people, from the very covenant with Abraham, were joined to Him in order to be a kingdom of priests, a blessing to the nations. On Halloween, the night when the proponents of Satan are boasting the loudest, if we stay silent and do not demonstrate to them their defeat, if we allow them, and the rest of the world, to believe for one moment that Satan can still win, what kind of priests are we being, what blessing are we administering?

We don't do Santa or the Easter Bunny either. But there is a difference between those figures and Halloween celebrations. Santa and the Bunny, in my opinion, serve to draw attention away from the proper focus of our celebration, the Incarnate and Risen Christ. Heck, some uses of Santa and Ol' Hoppy are down right idolatrous. Halloween, on the other hand, and, again, as I see it, is celebrated in order to draw us away from fear of death and focus our attention on the Messiah, Incarnate, Risen, and Triumphant.

Just some things I've been thinking about.

Ian

 
At 14 October, 2005 13:42, Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK, I'm gonna try to post again here. If this one does not go through, I'm taking it as a sign from God :)

Matt- Mark totally ignored your hilarious analogy. Well I laughed out loud!

Mark- In my previous post that disappeared, I addressed your analogies. Let me try to remember what I said. (OK I'm still gonna whine, it was soooo long, and it just poofed away! Matt, my Matt, said he thought maybe it was because Ian was deleting that post, and possibly taking his blog off line for a bit, while I was submitting my comment. )

Your analogy about the church. It doesn't even resemble the same thing, because you are saying to send your children to a Mormon church to hear their untrue as well as some true doctrine, and to ignore the untrue. How are we indoctrinating our children with untrue things if we are not telling them anything untrue to ignore? I guess your analogy would hold up if we were to send our kids to a Mormon church, and all they preached was what we believed, but then they wouldn't be a Mormon church would they. I just don't see the logic, but maybe I am missing something.

Ouiji boards..... As far as I know, there is really no way to play with them without trying to conjure up evil spirits, although I have actually never played. So, your analogy would work if we were telling our kids to play with evil and good, but ignore the evil, but I am not asking my children to do anything evil. All good. So if ouiji boards were all good, then yes, good analogy.

The question remains, do you celebrate Christmas in December? That is a Christianization of the winter solstice. If you wanted your Christmas to be pure of any "Christian paint", then you would celebrate it in the late spring. Oh, and no tree. Of course I am speaking tongue and cheek here because I celebrate Christmas in December and I do have a tree. I am just trying to help you understand that you can't have it both ways. If you truly do not want any Christianization of pagan holidays, then that is what you would have to do.

If your conscience is pricked by Halloween, then I would never push you to do anything but what your conscience would allow. But as far as telling fellow Christians they are simply washing their actions with Christian paint..... I personally have strong feelings about certain things, that other Christians do not, but unless I feel it is abundantly clear in the Bible, I am very careful about judging others. There have been things over the years I have felt very sure about, but have since changed my mind on. You have to leave a bit of room for that. If I sound preachy, I am sorry, but I am older than you :)

 
At 14 October, 2005 14:23, Anonymous Anonymous said...

For all your machining needs, please trust Stone Machine.

Stone Machine Company, Inc. is a precision, CNC Machine Shop specializing in applications and processes for the semiconductor and automation equipment manufacturing industries.

We are a locally owned corporation now in our 26th year of business!

 
At 14 October, 2005 15:26, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mark-

See what you started? Now you have Matt C. spamming.

Pretty soon, people will be posting Spam
about vampires and nursing bras..

Oh, wait...

-Matt G

 
At 14 October, 2005 15:43, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know, it's shameful how people would do that. I for one would never try to tell people about Red Penguin Productions, my site where I make professional home movies. How shameful would it be if I said that you could see examples at http://examples.red-penguin.net?

 
At 14 October, 2005 16:19, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey, nice Blog you've got here. SPAM is really annoying, so here's a great BLOG that I think you would enjoy a lot:
Danger of the Woods

Thanks!

 
At 15 October, 2005 11:07, Blogger Ian said...

...or Lobster Thermidor au Crevettes with a mornay sauce served in a Provencale manner with shallots and aubergines garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and spam.

Have you got anything without spam?

 
At 16 October, 2005 16:51, Blogger Jen said...

Hey Great blog. I really like what you do here. Come and check out my blog. Family friendly and no "hot" topics!
www.jenandthejems.blogspot.com
Just thought I would drop on by!
I am NOT going to join in on this 43 comment conversation!

 
At 16 October, 2005 16:53, Blogger Jen said...

OK, now it is 43! That must be a record Ian!

 
At 17 October, 2005 11:48, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, but if you discount all of Matt C's SPAM, there's only like 3 or 4 posts! ;)

 
At 17 October, 2005 13:21, Blogger Jen said...

spam is GREAT!!

 
At 17 October, 2005 14:58, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Urgghh!!

 
At 17 October, 2005 14:59, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What do you mean "Urgghh"? I don't like spam!

 
At 17 October, 2005 15:37, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Spam be damned! What of Halloween?

- Captain Clegg

 
At 17 October, 2005 15:43, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sshh, dear, don't cause a fuss. I'll have your spam. I love it. I'm having spam spam spam spam spam spam spam beaked beans spam spam spam and spam!

Ian,

you have me thinking that burlap and straw may be in fashion on the 31st

-Matt, booking a ticket to Dymchurch-Under-The-Wall

 
At 17 October, 2005 18:23, Anonymous Anonymous said...

OK. so things are getting really silly, and Ian and Matt have lost me a bit with their references. But I want to add one more serious comment before this topic is done.

Up until this time, our family has "celebrated?" halloween in this way; we have dressed our kids up as things like winnie the pooh, princesses, puppies, and the like. We have on some years driven them around to various relatives houses to collect candy, and on most years, driven to great grandma's house in chelsea, mass to help her pass out candy, with the kids, meeting the trick or treaters at the door, in their own costumes. We have never really told them anything about the origins of halloween, or much about it at all except that it was a fun thing to do once a year. We always figured that if we are not celebrating it in a bad manner then all was good. So after reading Ian's article, I thought it was an interesting thought, but I'm still not sure that the origins of what we do in pop culture on halloween is true. There doesn't seem to be anything else written backing this up except this article. If you are one to enjoy halloween then this would be a fun thing to believe, but I'm not sure I am totally convinced, but could be if shown enough evidence. My argument is more, if we are not celebrating halloween according to pagan practices, then it is not bad. I look at it a little bit like eating meat offered to idols. Boy, you couldn't get much more pagan than that. That certainly had pagan origins, but was not sin to those partaking because they weren't offering meat to idols themselves. However, if this were difficult for some to do (eating this meat) due to their upbringing etc, then they shouldn't. I kind of look at things like this in that way. My point to Mark was that we have obviously made different decisions concerning halloween, but I should not point at him and say he is sinning, and he should do likewise. (Which is I guess why I got my hackles up a bit with the Christian paint comment). On the other hand I do not know about dressing my kids up as Satan to mock the devil. Maybe, just maybe, that was it's origin, but I think it would be a bit much for them to comprehend right now. Something about that just doesn't feel right. So, I am not saying anyone is sinning that does celebrate it that way, but at this time my conscience doesn't allow me to do that.

I am very glad to know we can discuss these things and learn from each other. But I have one more thing to say. This morning Madeleine asked me if we were going to great grandma's on halloween and if she could wear her new prairie costume. Gracie was unaware halloween was coming up and wondered if she should wear her prairie costume or if she should consider something different. Madeleine told her that she could be whatever she wanted, except of course a witch or something bad like that. What made her say that? I don't remember ever saying that to her. Is her conscience pricked? If so, who am I to stop it? Not being sure I wanted to go down the whole mocking satan road, I didn't say a word.......

 
At 18 October, 2005 23:02, Blogger Ian said...

Wendy,

I do plan on commenting on your comment, but I've been busy with sheet-rocking our dining room ceiling. I'll be able to write more tomorrow; just didn't want you to think that the conversation had been lost to silliness....


Mark,

Curious as to what you're thinking in light of other people's comments [not other people's spam, mind you.... ;) ]

 
At 19 October, 2005 08:59, Anonymous Anonymous said...

When the Apostle Paul battled the heresy that said that one must be circumcised to be saved, he wrote letters to the Gentile churches setting the record straight. This is what he wrote... "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well" (Acts 15:28-29).

So this whole "meat sacrificed to idols" issue is resolved here. Don't do it. It's not right.

In other places in the NT, Paul shows grace to those who do this, but the command is to not do it.

I thought this might shed light on the (in my opinion) overused "meat sacrificed to idols" excuse for doing things.

 
At 19 October, 2005 09:02, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just to set the record straight, we work in METAL, not stone.

Stone Machine: we're metal guys, not stone.

 
At 19 October, 2005 09:45, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mark,

Just a quick comment- no real time to dig and come up with a complete line of reasoning:

If God has given a command to obstain from such meats but gives "special dispensation" to the church in Corinth, that seems contradictory. It makes more sense that God really doesn't care where the meat comes from, but asks Christians in certain situations to deny themselves so that their freedom does not serve as a stumbling block to a fellow Christian who is weaker in their conscience and knowledge.

I agree that in 1 Cor. grace is being extended, but not to those who are eating food that they shouldn't: Paul is asking the "stronger" Christian to bear with his "weaker" brother whose conscience is bothered but shouldn't be.

It is this reading of 1 Cor. that makes the apparent contradiction in Acts disappear. This commandment was given to Gentile believers in the Jerusalem church, where they had to live in harmony with ethnic Jewish believers who would be offended by anyone eating meat to idols. Therefore Paul asks the gentile believers to deny themselves for the sake of unity.

-Matt G

 
At 19 October, 2005 10:28, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, "excuse for doing things".... I see I have not changed your mind about me using "Christian paint" and making "excuses". I thought I backed up my beliefs fairly well and gave you good examples of why, if you do not agree with my practices still, that you could not accuse me of evil doing! I had always had the understanding of those scriptures that Matt gave. I've even heard full sermons saying the like, and have never heard that scripture interpreted the way you explained. Not being a bible scholar, I guess I'm not gonna argue that one with you.

You never answered my question about why your rule does not apply to the way you celebrate Christmas. I'm not trying to be argumentative but want to know why you see there is a difference.

You know what? I'm wondering if this conversation does not encourage unity. I feel like we've passed the line in encouraging one another and making one another think about our Christian walk, and just causing division. I hope not.

 
At 19 October, 2005 11:21, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wendy, I am so sorry for offending you with my words. That is never my intention. I should have crafted my words more carefully. I was in between meetings and didn't spend enough time on the post. I'm sorry for that. Please accept my heart-felt apology.

However, I do beleive that Halloween is evil - has evil origins and is still evil today. I think it best that Christians abstain from it. But I don't think that Christians are evil who see it differently. Some of my favorite Christians see Halloween differently than I do. And I include you in the "my favorite Christians" category.

I agree with you that this conversation has not been fostering unity.

I will answer your "Christmas" question, though. The reality of wanting to celebrate the birth of our Savior when everyone else does means that I celebrate in December. If I could go back in time and influence when Christmas is celebrated, I would, but I can't. It is celebrated by everyone in December, and since I want to be a part of that, I can "suck it up" and celebrate Christmas in December.

Ideally it would be on a different date.

 
At 19 October, 2005 12:10, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wendy,

I'd just like to encourage you regarding the dialogue here. I don't think that this is divisive- it's "iron sharpening iron". It's no good if we all agreed 100% with each other- if we were wrong in our beliefs, who would challenge us? How would we learn the truth unless somebody disagreed and made us re-examine our position? Even if we are right- why are we right? Have we really thought it through, or are we going on feelings or just going with the crowd? It's good to be challenged from time to time to make sure we don't get intellectually or spiritually lazy.

The problem with electronic formats like this is that there is no face to face, no subtly in facial expression or vocal inflection to impart a sense of sarcasm or levity, so people come across as harsh or cold even if it is not their intent. Also, unlike the written letters of days gone by where people took the time to choose every word carefully so as to convey their exact meaning, most of us are typing these things during breaks or late at night, so we don't (or can't) take the time to word things properly.

In other words, Mark may be wrong, but he isn't trying to be mean :p

So take heart- this is all good- except of course for the SPAM, for which there is no excuse.

-Heather's Matt

 
At 19 October, 2005 12:59, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi Matt,

I agree that it is good to talk about things with which we differ, but i also think it reaches a point where it's time to agree to disagree. I feel a little bit like we're not even all reasoning using the same premise. So it just goes round and round. But in general I love to be challenged on my beliefs, because it is good to look hard at why we believe/do some of the things we do. It helps me to either solidify them or change.

I wasn't really hurt by what mark said, I was simply trying to point out to him that I sincerely have a different point of view than him, and not because I am making excuses or trying to paint it in a good light, but because I actually believe what I say! It was kind of him to apologize, and I also realize that email is difficult as a means to communicate subtlety, so that is why I pressed him on it. Not to vindicate myself, but to point out to him what he was saying to me. To clarify if that is what he was actually saying (that it is not possible to actually have these views, that we are making excuses etc.) So, in pointing this out to him, he does clarify, and simply say it was a poor choice if words, and that was indeed not what he meant. In which case I'm glad I called him on it. Do you see what I mean? I wasn't being offended, just pointing out to him the difference between arguing a point, and questioning motives. It is good to keep that in mind when debating.

Must get back to school. I can't keep doing this! Anyone know of a good way to explain place value? Can't seem to do it any justice......

 
At 19 October, 2005 13:19, Blogger Ian said...

I just wanted to say that I am enjoying and appreciating the conversation on this topic. I whole-heartedly agree with my brother on all points in his above comment.

I do think it would help to remember that this particular topic, the celebration onf Halloween, is not prescribed in Scripture. I hope we would all agree to conceed that our points of view are just that, "our points of view". That being said, the things I am writing are not intended to convict, condemn, label, etc. Rather my hope is to encourage, edify, inspire, maybe teach, and definitely learn. Discussion amongst the brethren is a glorious privilege that I cherish.

That being said, back to the converstaion.

Beloved, thanks for participating.

Ian

 
At 19 October, 2005 13:21, Blogger Ian said...

Wendy,

Let me start off by saying that my stance on this subject is not based on the history of Halloween. To be quite honest, some of the concepts put forth in the article I posted were new to me, too. I had always been told about the Druids and Samhain, yada, yada, yada.... But that is not what grabbed me in this article. It was more the concept of the present and the future of Halloween that stood out to me. That we, as Christians, can look at death and Satan and not be afraid is certainly something worth celebrating in my opinion. In fact, as I recall some of what I've said earlier, I might even say that the "evil" Druid origins of Halloween make our victory celebration all the more vibrant. It is a visible reminder that our God is redeeming His creation; We see evil being replaced, or better, "conquered", by God's goodness which He graciously administers through His people. The Scriptures tell us that "we are more than conquerors through Christ." So, I would just encourage you not to get hung up too much on the history. We can't change that, but we can change the future within the bounds of God's sovereignty. In short, I do not observe Halloween believing that it was a Christian holliday, rather I observe it with the hope that it is a Christian holiday because I, and other Christians, observe it and do so by celebrating Christ's victory over death.

I said before, and I truly believe this(and this is my personal conviction, and I would never think less or ill of anybody who does not share it), that to either not do anything on Halloween, or to abolish it all together would be to not enjoy the victory we are given. To see in history that God fearing men have taken steps to redeem a pagan holiday, then to deny their efforts seems to me to be a sort of de-redemption. It doesn't seem right to me to give back the spoils, if you know what I mean.

Finally, let me share a story about one of my kids. Michelle and Aedan were in Wally-world the other day, and, obviously, they have all their Halloween stuff out. So, Michelle looks down to see Aedan sticking his fingers up the nose of some skull-candellabra thingy, poking it the eye (socket), etc. And she asks him, "Aedan, does that scare you?" "No," he replied.
"Do we need to be scared of evil?"
"No."
"Why not? Who conquers evil?"
"Good conquers evil!" (This is something we tell him and his "hero-minded" 4 year old self on a regular basis.)
"Yes, but what person conquered evil?"
"Jesus, when He died on the cross." And he went about his business sticking his digits into various skeletal orifices.

My point is that we need to be training our children to see the world with a redemption perspective. God has won. Satan is bound. Is there still evil in the world. Yes. Should we be aware of it? Absolutely. Should we guard ourselves against it? Of course (be sober, be diligent....). Do we need to be afraid of it. Positively Not! It will not prosper, it cannot prevail, it is put in subjection underneath our feet because Christ has crushed the head of the serpent with His. If Madeline's conscience is pricked, excellent, but let me encourage you to jump on such opportunities to deepen her understanding. Witches, real witches, are bad stuff, but becuase of our hope in Christ, we need not fear them. This is what I mean by a redemption perspective; lifting our children's eyes, and our own for that matter, to focus on the victory that Christ has already won, and living our lives bodly in truth, hope, and understanding.

2 Timothy 1:7 We have not been given a spirit of fear; but of power, of love and a sound mind.

Revelation 1:17-18 Fear not; I am the first and the last; I am he that liveth, and was dead; and behold I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

 
At 19 October, 2005 15:12, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wendy-

Place value: Boardwalk is worth the most, especially with Hotels

Ian-

Amen!

-Matt

 
At 19 October, 2005 16:55, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Great Blog you've got here! Lets see if we can run the numbers up on this other post, which I thinks deserves just as much attention and comment:

http://rabbitinthewoods.blogspot.com/2005/09/parable-of-beaten-jew-part-5.html

-Matt G, who's not clever enough to have his own blog and is living vicariously through his brother

 
At 19 October, 2005 19:25, Anonymous Anonymous said...

SPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM!

 
At 20 October, 2005 12:04, Anonymous Anonymous said...

New special:

Free "trick or treating" bag with every lathed part!

This won't last long...

http://www.stonemachine.com

Stone Machine: We put the "hallow" in "Halloween."

 
At 20 October, 2005 12:27, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's big, hairy, brown, and red, and goes, "Thump, whac, thump! Thump, whack, thump!"?











A dead horse being beaten.... ;)


Heh..eh-heh..heh :P

 
At 20 October, 2005 18:23, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I should probably defend my husband to say that he is not spamming on Stone Machine's behalf, it is his sometimes ghostwriter Mark. If you know Matt pretty well, you can tell the difference :)

 
At 20 October, 2005 21:35, Blogger Jen said...

Wendy,
Place value... send them to school, then you don't have to worry about it! hahahaha..........

 
At 21 October, 2005 09:41, Anonymous Anonymous said...

GREAT horse analogy. I think that the poor horse has been dead for a long time. fueral is over. buried and probably dust by now.

 
At 22 October, 2005 07:12, Anonymous Anonymous said...

69, Dude!

 
At 22 October, 2005 12:33, Anonymous Anonymous said...

this must be a record. CONGRATS

 
At 24 October, 2005 17:19, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I got a rock.

 
At 26 October, 2005 10:36, Blogger Ian said...

Amy,

Thank's for commenting! I'm not ignoring your post, I've just been very busy with school and have not had a chance to sit and ponder thoroughly, if you know what I mean.

Ian

 
At 28 October, 2005 17:39, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A relevant article (sorry- I don't know how to get the links to work):

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/10/28/student_ghosts_unmasked_in_newton?mode=PF

This isn't political correctness run amock- this sounds more like Legalism run amok.

I recently spoke with a friend who had a falling out with some close friends over Halloween; his friends claimed his celebration of Halloween (i.e. kids dressing up and trick or treating) was "satan worship" and "a stumbling block" to their (not his but THEIR) Christian walk.

How sad.

I thank God that even though we may not all agree about this, we've stayed away from this kind of hysteria, acted like adults(for the most part- Mark ;) and remained friends.

-Matt G

 
At 29 October, 2005 12:49, Blogger Ian said...

OK, I'd like to first give a rousing "Amen!".

Second, I'd like to ask, "John who?"


Ian

 
At 29 October, 2005 13:53, Anonymous Anonymous said...

John Michael Spezeski

 
At 29 October, 2005 20:17, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do you think that you could get 100 comments before the BIG DAY?
You are well on your way... is there a prize?







OH YEAH: a BIG bag of candy!!

 
At 30 October, 2005 17:49, Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.natreformassn.org/jordanToC.html

 
At 30 October, 2005 18:04, Anonymous Anonymous said...

(written by James B. Jordan, whom I admittedly don't know much about)

http://www.natreformassn.org/jordanToC.html

 
At 01 November, 2005 15:28, Blogger Jen said...

So, how many people that wrote on this actually went out last night? or Sunday? when ever your trick or treating was???

Ian, it is time for a new post!!

 
At 01 November, 2005 16:17, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Jen,

I took the kids out sunday night with two other families from church (who shall remain nameless to protect them from any recriminations)

-Matt G.

 
At 01 November, 2005 16:44, Anonymous Anonymous said...

John M. Spezeski Took his family on sunday and monday to exercise our liberty in Christ and our victory over Satan

 

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